Fiona Weaver 0:00
Hello my love today I am speaking with my friend Georgie Steven. But before we get started with Georgie, I just wanted to remind you that I still have that free workshop on biologically normal infant sleep in the first three years. You can access it via my website, I will link it in the show notes. But it will also get you on the wait list for the next round of mama matters Academy which is coming really, really really soon. So I will let you know more about that next time we chat. In the meantime, get over to my website mo matters.com. Today you check out mama matters Academy and sign up for the workshop that way. Okay, and now Georgie she is a mama to one spirited little girl and lives within lives with her family in Melbourne. She's a degree qualified naturopath and an SOS trained feeding therapist. Jody works with new and not so new mothers alike who are struggling with fatigue and exhaustion, postpartum depression, sleep deprivation, hormone imbalances and the many other challenges that arise out of the demands of pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding and postpartum. She's on a mission to change the way mothers are cared for, and care for themselves in postpartum and the early years of their mothering journey, so they can go on to enjoy the wild ride that is motherhood for many years to come. She also works with babies and toddlers, and uses her training as a feeding therapist regularly in clinic to help parents of picky eaters well, I might need to get in touch with her about that. Georgie works one to one with mothers all across Australia via telehealth and you can find her at Georgie Stephen. That's Stephen with a P h.com.au. Or on Instagram at Geordi. Stephen underscore. Okay, enjoy the chat. Welcome, Georgie. Welcome to the potty. It's lovely to have you here.
Unknown Speaker 1:42
Thank you so much for having me. It's an honour.
Fiona Weaver 1:45
It's my honour. Honestly, I have we have been friends for a little while now I have a way you've been around since the OG days way back when one of the very first people who I connected with on Instagram and Mama matters. So I'm really, really stoked to come full circle and have you here on the potty. Yeah, it
Unknown Speaker 2:05
is a bit full circle, isn't it? Because I often think Oh, Mom and Dad is is like as old as my daughter is because Yeah, you were just starting. When I I think my daughter was a couple of months old. But yeah, and your work has been so pivotal in my own personal motherhood journey, which as I'm sure we'll get to has then led to me being so interested in working with mothers so it is really like full circle. I guess
Fiona Weaver 2:32
it is it's really lovely, isn't it? So Zoey is your daughter? She's almost three now, isn't she?
Unknown Speaker 2:38
Yeah, yep. She's about to hit three. And yeah, it's a great stage great age. Love it very same
Fiona Weaver 2:48
age.
Unknown Speaker 2:50
I don't I don't actually I was I you know, you have that conversation with with other moms and mom friends and baby stage was just not really my jam, not my favourite. And, you know, for various reasons around sleep and whatnot, as I'm sure we'll touch on, but I don't I don't say that about every agent stage. I do love this toddler stage. So it's very rewarding. I think you know, you're really get that feedback and interaction and relationship. I guess it is, you know?
Fiona Weaver 3:24
Yeah, it is interesting, isn't it? How we all feel a little bit more natural in certain ages and stages of development. Like I love babies. I am so tempted to have more babies so I can have more babies, but then I think about or they're gonna turn one at some stage. And then you have to kind of wait till they're three. I love them. I love them in that time as well, because it's so like, ultimate cute, ultimate toddler, but just the intensity of parenting in those years. So I find it really draining.
Unknown Speaker 3:59
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're right.
Fiona Weaver 4:04
Okay, so let's go back to the start. Anyway, I always get into it before I even give you the chance to introduce yourself. So I know you as Georgie Stephen, the naturopath for add new specialises in mums of wakeful babies, and I love that but tell us about yourself who's in your family and all about your work?
Unknown Speaker 4:23
Yeah, so I'm Georgie. Georgie. Stephen. I am a naturopath. So you've got it right. Yeah, and I am mum to little Zoey who, as we've said nearly three and I live with her and my husband in Melbourne. So we're Melbourne based. And I work with mums and I like to say I work with mums and all of those who depend on them. So you know, that's their babies and their toddlers and their little kids. So, you know, really supporting mums through that early part of motherhood, particularly those mums who were struggling with wakeful babies, and that a lot of that stems out of my own personal experience and wanting to support others through that. And then yeah, often find them working with little babies and little toddlers when they might need support, as well. Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 5:20
So, talk to me about how you came to niche down to mums with wakeful babies. What was your experience having Zoey?
Unknown Speaker 5:31
Well, she was awake for baby, essential wait before baby, which I was completely unprepared for. I don't know if you could really ever be prepared for a wasteful baby, maybe, you know, second time around you at least know what's in store for you. But yet first time mom, wakeful baby it was, yeah, a shock to the system, I guess you could say. But through it, I was able to really draw upon, you know, my training and my experience working as a naturopath before I became a mom in terms of what was going on for me through that sleep deprivation. And like, really there I'm thinking, you know, physiologically, biochemically, if you will, and apply some of my, you know, strategies and training that I would use with clients to myself and what I was going through. And so I was really able to, I suppose, support myself through that phase. And, for me, it was really quite a few years that we're going through, you know, those wakeful periods. It was unrelenting. It wasn't like, Oh, we're in a bad patch. And now we're in a good patch, it was consistently awake many, many times a night for many years. So, you know, from that, I, I suppose I survived through that in a way and definitely took some hits, but came out the other side relatively unscathed, although I'm sure time will tell. But, you know, through that I sort of found, you know, just looking around talking to other moms and just seeing in that space out there in terms of new motherhood space that and you would know this, there's, there's a lot of talk, a lot of attention paid to the baby's sleep side of things, but almost no attention or air time given to the mums. Well, being through that. I mean, definitely, that's a part of the conversation. Don't get me wrong, that, you know, people are mindful of that. But I really didn't see anybody giving the solutions to mums in terms of, okay, you've got to wait for baby. Maybe for whatever reason, you know, your family values, you're just going to continue with like a nighttime responsive approach. But like, let's not forget about you, man, like, let's, let's give you the tools and the strategies to be able to get through this, this phase, not just, you know, grin and bear it or suffer in silence, which is sort of sometimes the only choices I feel like are presented to moms.
Fiona Weaver 8:17
Yeah, you're right. It's always people get stuck in thinking that they either have to do some behavioural sleep training methods, or they have to suck it up and not talk about it and not complain, because it's their choice to respond. And there's so much space in between isn't there? And I love that you focus on moms while being mums sleep hygiene, the whole family sleep hygiene, you're talking my language. So when you say that you were able to apply some of those strategies and tools to yourself in that time, what did that look like? And what sort of symptoms were you experiencing back then in the in the throes of sleep deprivation?
Unknown Speaker 8:53
Yeah, I mean, there's the really obvious things that we could probably all imagine whether we've got to wait for baby or not, you know, it's going to be like crippling fatigue, exhaustion. I mean, some mums end up feeling like they're really burnt out, which is totally understandable. But, you know, we get the brain fog, we get the like, trouble remembering things about cognition starts to be impacted, like, all those very obvious things that we've experienced with sleep deprivation. But then thinking a little bit deeper about that. And, you know, this is what I was thinking as I was going through it, it's kind of like, what's really going on here, like, Yeah, we haven't slept, okay. So that's going to impact our energy and how we feel the next day, but you know, what else is impacted here? And how can we support that? So, you know, we can draw upon like, what we know in terms of actual like sleep science, as well as just what we know about the new motherhood period and kind of a couple of those things together. So thinking about things like you know, changes to our brain Um, neurotransmitter levels changes to our blood sugar regulation, changes to our hormone balance, you know, all those kinds of things are going to be influenced by sleep or lack thereof. And so they kind of become the pillars upon which you really need to focus or, you know, support a mother with if she wants to continue the night time responsiveness but you know, wants to not feel like a complete zombie. And so, thinking about those things, I could kind of go, Okay, well, what do we know about hormone balance? Right? Well, let's do those things. If I can't change my baby's sleep, let's focus on this, you know, nutrition becomes extremely important in this context. So, you know, balancing our blood sugar really starts with the foods that we eat, making sure that we are nutrient replete, so that we can support that, you know, brain chemistry in terms of neurotransmitter function. So they're kind of the things that I was starting to, you know, toy with these kind of concepts and see whether applying them, you know, could be beneficial for surviving this really, really tricky phase. And I think, I mean, nervous system function is going to be really key there too, as well as adrenal gland function, which is really the system that's responsible for our stress response. So obviously, sleep deprivation is, you know, an inherently stressful event, both physically and psychologically and emotionally. So you know, that that's going to be crucial there, too. And so I think, and, you know, this is the conversation I have with moms who I do work with on this is, you know, this is not the magic pill, it's not going to be the answer that gives you all your energy back, you know, we have to be realistic that in the context of ongoing broken sleep, you know, that is going to take its toll. But what we're doing here is providing as strong of a foundation as we possibly can. So that, you know, when baby does start sleeping, or or, you know, whenever you decide to change what you're doing, and yes, and you come through the other side, you're not a complete wreck. And unfortunately, like, sadly, sometimes that's when I do start working with moms is, you know, one year down the track 18 months down the track, sometimes, you know, two or more years down the track. And they end up in in a really depleted state. Sometimes, you know, this is referred to as postnatal depletion, and, and sleep deprivation factor is a really big contributor there. And so then you're kind of trying to pick up the pieces at the other end and put them all back together, rather than, you know, riding the waves or weathering the storm, if you will, as you're going through it, you know, as best as you possibly can.
Fiona Weaver 12:52
Yeah, I can imagine that most people would come to you once they are at a breaking point. And hey,
Unknown Speaker 12:59
yeah, yeah, I yeah, I do often see, mother's at the sort of other end, if you will. So sort of once they've come through it, I think, and I would love to be able to help more mums earlier on in their journey. But you know, there's so many factors at play, and there's only so much capacity, one woman one mother has at one time. And so you know, often in those early weeks and months, there is a lot of focus, you know, mom's focuses on all those things that you're grappling with, when you become a mother in the fourth trimester, you're healing from birth, you're initiating breastfeeding. If you do have a wakeful baby, you're often trying to understand that and so you know, people might be more engaged with, you know, the information that you're sharing, for example, around baby's sleep, and focusing on themselves at that point is sort of like one drop in the bucket too much. And there's, you know, there's not a lot of capacity for that, sadly. So yeah, often it's, it's seeing seeing women on the other end. And not to say that, you know, that's any worse or any better, we can always, you know, rebuild and repair, repair and restore ourselves, you know, whether it's months or years down the track. But yeah, it would just be nice for, you know, the mothers quality of life along the journey, if we could provide that support and foundation earlier.
Fiona Weaver 14:22
What, what would be the ideal scenario? Would you like to see people in their pregnancy and then soon after birth, and then regularly?
Unknown Speaker 14:31
It is such a good question. It's probably the million dollar question, isn't it? But I think with so much post partum you know, it would be best if we could reach mothers and support mothers in pregnancy. But, and I know you've spoken to this in the past, but it's sort of that readiness to receive information to you know, because and, you know, I can draw from personal experience here in pregnancy. This is definitely like a first time mum thing as well. But, you know, you just assume that motherhood and your new baby is going to be like your old life where you, you can just control, you know, and, and dictate the outcome. But of course, you know, now you're in relation ship with this new little baby who has their own temperament and personality and sleep needs and all the other things. And so I guess what I'm saying is that, you know, in pregnancy, like, Are people open to that information, you know, women ready to receive because sometimes we're a bit too arrogant maybe or, you know, or ignorant or, or something in between and just not ready for it. So, potentially, yes, pregnancy would be the best time to really set women up. But I think that's probably like more of a foundational shift, if you will, you know, with our social structures and the way that we actually think about and value motherhood. So without, you know, moving mountains, I think early postpartum would be best, you know, just to get that message to them that if their baby's wakeful, and they're just trying to take that more go with the flow approach. There's lots you can lots you can do to support yourself through it. So yeah, maybe, you know, realistically working on it, then.
Fiona Weaver 16:29
Yeah. So booking in early postpartum if, if not before would be great. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's on Mothers and what often comes up for mothers, I'm really curious about what you see, in terms of baby health or small child health, and how certain deficiencies and things impact on their sleep, how that presents? I'm thinking iron, magnesium, those sorts of things. Can you speak to that a little bit? Huh?
Unknown Speaker 17:03
Yeah, this is such an interesting topic. Well, to me anyway. And again, I think maybe something has not given necessarily enough air time. In terms of baby's sleep, you know, it's often just around like the behavioural staff, or, you know, there's definitely more awareness now about some of the red flags to look out for, but then, you know, the nutritional aspects really fall a little bit further down the rung and aren't necessarily considered, but, you know, have to think about, you know, the nutrition that we have as adults that our babies are getting from their milk, you know, this is really the building block for so much of our body's health. But you know, when it comes to sleep, which, you know, we're thinking, nervous system function, here, we're thinking neurotransmitters, you know, there's little chemical messages inside the brain that actually sort of pulling the strings in terms of what the nervous system does, initiating sleep, maintaining sleep, all these things are really reliant, they can't happen without the nutritional building blocks. And so that comes back to things like Yeah, our minerals, some of our micronutrients, like our iron, and our magnesium, and zinc, some of the really, really important ones. Protein is going to be absolutely crucial there too, as well as things like our omega three. So you know, those essential fatty acids that we hear about the vitamin D, and vitamin B 12, are also crucial. I mean, I could actually list you know, a long laundry list of, of nutrients that are important here. But if we want to get a little bit more specific, you know, some of those big ones that you mentioned, are the iron, the magnesium, the zinc. Iron is certainly the most well researched, nutrient out there, relating to babies and sleep. So we do have a lot of data on that specific micronutrient not so much on some of the other ones. But what I tend to sort of do when I'm thinking about this is, you know, we can draw upon research that's being done in either like older populations of children, or, you know, what we know from what we know about nutrition and biochemistry from adults, and, you know, kind of translate it to babies too, but certainly iron deficiency and there is a spectrum of iron deficiency that exists. I don't know how deep we're gonna go today onto in that but yeah, there's there's a lot of information research there that says that when we have insufficient levels of iron ore babies are iron deficient. There is a relationship between that and their sleep quality. So, yeah,
Fiona Weaver 19:56
what was the deal with And breastfed babies.
Unknown Speaker 20:02
So, yeah. So what happens in late stage pregnancy is that there's a large transfer of iron from mom to baby. And so babies really like gearing up for you know, those first few months birth side by storing up a lot of iron.
Fiona Weaver 20:20
Does that mean that if a mother has an iron deficiency in pregnancy, then that is going to potentially impact their iron stores in the baby?
Unknown Speaker 20:29
Yeah, that's definitely one of the risk factors that we see in terms of iron deficiency in babies in little babies is iron deficiency in pregnancy at any point in pregnancy, but particularly late stage pregnancy. So when I'm talking with her mom or a parent about their baby's sleep, that's often one of the questions that I'll be asking, you know, to try and tease apart whether Yes, this is an iron deficiency or another nutrient deficiency that might be at play. And, I mean, with so much in motherhood, and especially around pregnancy and breastfeeding, like, you know, we just have to be so, so kind and gentle with ourselves and try and practice that self compassion, because some of these topics, you know, we can really easily lead into feeling guilty and feeling bad. But, you know, I've never we've never met never worked with a mum who's not doing the absolute best that she can do. And you know, sometimes it's just about the information that we did or didn't have access to at that point in time, maybe whoever we're working with in pregnancy didn't highlight the importance of iron. And so, you know, we were just doing what we could do.
Fiona Weaver 21:41
That's, that's something that comes up often is that there is really conflicting opinions and advice around iron in pregnancy, often people will have different standards about what is normal, what is low? Do you find that with GPS and things?
Unknown Speaker 21:59
Yes, yes, there, there is a range, I would say, of what's considered. So I mean, yeah, what's considered optimal, I suppose, is probably the word that I'm looking for. So, you know, often we won't get flagged as having low iron until our iron levels. And when I say iron levels, it's important to understand that it's not just one marker, if we go to have an iron blood tests, we get a whole like group of markers called Iron studies. And so really, you should always be having that interpreted all together, because they each play their role in our iron metabolism. So when I say low iron, I'm referring to like a pattern that we see in those blood markers. So if we have low ion, as in like, out of range low, like below the reference range, then a GP or an obstetrician, you know, in the context of pregnancy will be like, yes, low iron, we need to aggressively supplement and for a lot of moms that might even meet an iron infusion, depending on how low it gets. But you know, there's a big difference between low as an out of range and what might be considered the optimal level, to, you know, not just support the pregnancy and baby's growth, but also support mums well being through that pregnancy, because what we find in pregnancy and breastfeeding, particularly with something like iron is that the iron will be peripherally preferentially, you know, transferred to baby by the placenta or the breast milk. And that comes at the cost of moms well being in various ways. So, you know, it's it's definitely the two factors there. But it's tricky, and I don't want to overwhelm people with you know, that information around what's low, what's normal, what's optimal. But, you know, there is a difference, there is often something I'm talking about online, in my articles and on Instagram. So if anyone is curious about learning more about that, you know, maybe maybe hit me up there, we can go deep. You know,
Fiona Weaver 24:00
I also find that if a parent wants to explore iron deficiency in their baby, if they've seen some flags, that GPS, or any health care provider will, again have very different views and opinions, and a lot of them will dismiss, exploring that at all. Is the only way to test on a baby a blood test. And when would you do that?
Unknown Speaker 24:29
Yeah, it's such a good question. And something that comes up a lot because iron is it's a tricky, nutrient tricky mineral because it's one of those minerals that we don't supplement unless there's a really good need because there's sort of a tight range in which we want our iron levels to be in so we don't want them too low, but we also don't want them too high because then that leads to other issues. So you know, typically speaking, I wouldn't supplement anyone without Seeing the iron levels in the blood. However, when we're talking about babies and toddlers, it's obviously more complicated than that, because a blood test is, it can be very tricky. And, you know, it's ultimately up to the parents or, you know, depending on the age of the child working with them to about what they feel comfortable with, you know, do they feel comfortable with a blood draw in a little baby, because you know, that's going to be uncomfortable. There are steps we can take with, you know, numbing creams and those kinds of things to make it as comfortable as possible for babies and toddlers and kids. But yeah, it's ultimately a conversation that has to be had. Because, yeah, because of that reason, you know, we don't want to be supplementing iron willy nilly, we really just want to use it when we need to, but in cases where let's say, we're not going to do a blood test, for whatever reason, then we just really think about the history. So you know, pregnant, what was pregnancy? Like? Were there any complications? Was there anything like a haemorrhage at birth, because obviously, that's going to impact on levels is baby being breastfed bottle fed, and then obviously, looking at, you know, the signs and potential signs and symptoms very, very closely. And sometimes we make that call based on that clinical evaluation when we think it's needed. But, you know, with anything with sleep, and I know, you know, this, it's, it's, you really do have to be thorough. So I have one thing on my radar, some of those other minerals, you know, zinc and magnesium are on my radar too. But it's, it's important not to get caught up in just one thing, you know, I am gets a lot of airtime, probably because it's the most well researched. As I said, there's a lot of data out there about it. So it's, you know, easy to kind of focus on it. But, you know, could be iron, copper, zinc, could be magnesium could be food reactions, could be gut health, you know, from the perspective that I take in my clinic, but also, you know, all the things that you would be flagging for too, like sleep disordered breathing, you know, any respiratory distress, all those kinds of things as well. So it's, I guess, for parents, for mothers, it's just so important to try and, you know, get as holistic and assessment as you possibly can.
Fiona Weaver 27:21
It's hard as well, isn't it? Because often, it won't be any of those things, and it will just be a wakeful baby.
Unknown Speaker 27:27
Yes. And this was, this was my experience, you know, I mean, I, I did not have my daughter's iron levels tested, I'll just be honest, but I felt confident based on what I knew about my own pregnancy and experience and signs and symptoms and all that kind of jazz that we've talked about. Amongst those other things that I mentioned to that you need to screen for and flag for. I went through that journey of like, trying to turn over all the rocks, you know, and I felt like at the end of the day, I didn't leave any stone unturned and I had to just sit with the acceptance that she just alone asleep need baby. She's just wakeful baby. She's just she's a breastfed, you know, co sleeping bed sharing baby. And pretty much everything was just normal for her, you know? So,
Fiona Weaver 28:12
yeah, it's often tricky to find that balance. And I have moms coming to me all the time thinking. I know that it can be normal. I know that it's in the normal range. But when do you know when you know, there are red flags, or when there's something else to explore. And I go through all of those sorts of things as well at our, you know, one to one work with moms. But it's hard because you don't want to be trying to find an answer for everything when it might just be normal than messy but you also don't want to miss something that could potentially be helped. So we want to normalise the the normalise the heart and that.
Unknown Speaker 28:49
Yeah, I think that question swings both ways. Like, you don't want to pathologize the normal, but you don't want to miss anything by just saying that everything's normal. So yeah, and that doesn't make things any easier for him. But I think what you said is like a really good question to ask people, like if you're thinking about working with someone, whether that's, you know, a sleep consultant, or a naturopath or whoever in between, you know, asking them that question, like, how do you know when it's normal, so that you, you know, they know what they're looking for, you know, so that they don't pathologize everything and, and just say, oh, yeah, well, it's definitely a nutrient deficiency. So let's supplement you or the baby or whatever it might be like, and just get a sense of Yeah, their work, their work flow and how they come to decide whether it is or isn't normal, and then you can get a sense of where they might sit on answering that question.
Fiona Weaver 29:48
Yeah, I love that. Can we just touch on zinc and magnesium? How does that present differently than something like iron or is it all sort of the same in that it causes a little bit more wakefulness or restlessness in sleep.
Unknown Speaker 30:06
Yeah, so with zinc and magnesium, like I said, they're less well researched when it comes to infant sleep in particular. So it's kind of difficult to say with much confidence, like, what does that really look like? But you know, when we look at some of the research on older children or adults, we know that, you know, magnesium deficiency can lead to things like low levels of melatonin, which is our sleepy hormone, you know, sleeping neurotransmitter for sleep onset. It's needed for breaking down our adrenal hormones and our adrenaline. So you know, potentially, the nervous system can be over activated, interfering with sleep. Magnesium is essential for things like muscle tension and relaxation. So again, like the potential impact on sleep. And also without zinc, you know, what can draw on some of this other research in older children and think about zinc levels are needed to produce zinc is level needed to produce some of our relaxing neurotransmitters like GABA. So again, like just promoting a restful, nervous system state that is conducive to good sleep. And zinc, I find is one that once we've sort of done the eye on assessment, if we suspect that that's involved, iron and zinc, they really come hand in hand in terms of where they're found in foods. So you know, if for any reason we think like mum was iron deficient, or whatever that might look like, if we're working with older babies and toddlers who are eating, you know, we're thinking about what kind of foods are they eating, and if there's potentially iron deficiency, you know, we can kind of say, well, there might be a zinc deficiency, too, because those, they're found in essentially the same foods. You but you know, we are always making sure we're thorough, I'm not jumping to conclusions. But then in terms of, you know, potential symptoms that we we might see, you know, with the magnesium we're looking for, you know, maybe, you know, sleeps, sleeps, want one there, but also, you know, potentially kind of an irritated or restless baby, or, you know, this applies to older babies and toddlers, too, but also, you know, maybe a baby who has a lot of holding a lot of tension. So that kind of baby that Ito hypertonic sort of muscle function can also be a presentation there as well. Even like sensitivity to sound and noise is something that I might be considering for magnesium just because of its role in, you know, the neurotransmitter production and those stress hormones, with zinc off, and I'm thinking about is there concurrent, you know, anything happening in the digestive system at the same time, because zinc is absolutely crucial for digestion, as it is in immunity, too. So thinking about, you know, frequent infections is that the baby that always gets sick or is having, you know, ear infections. Other markers would be like growth pattern, so gaining weight, you know, hitting developmental milestones, and this would go for zinc, and iron. Appetite would be a sign I'd be thinking about in in zinc to so you know, is baby, you know, feeding, on demand feeding, you know, getting good volumes, or, you know, for our babies and our toddlers who are on solids, or they, you know, come into the coming to the meal with a big appetite. But, you know, also just grain of salt there, because, you know, I'm sure many moms know, when we first start solids, it's normal for babies to take quite a few months to, you know, be interested and start eating meaningful volumes of food. So like, again, you know, just taking everything in context and not jumping to quick conclusions, but those would be the big ones I'd be thinking about for for zinc and magnesium.
Fiona Weaver 34:18
Hmm. And there's a lot of overlap, isn't there? And it's it's such a bigger picture thing than just pinpointing one. deficiency, isn't it?
Unknown Speaker 34:29
Yes, it definitely is. Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 34:32
I would love to know about food allergies as well, because that's something that's often flagged for in the sleep world as well. What would you be looking for there? I know that people are so quick to just cut out major food groups and I know that that's not always advised, is it?
Unknown Speaker 34:52
I would say no, that is definitely not advisable, not without some solid professional support of Some some degree. So, yeah, look, I, my approach is probably quite conservative compared to get what you normally see out there in relation to cutting out whole food groups or avoiding avoiding Whole Foods, I tend to use that very infrequently and only when there's seems to be a very good indication that something might be there. Because there are there multiple risks, or I suppose, shortfalls in doing that concerns, if you will. So, I mean, there's the obvious one, like, it's going to be a lot harder, more stressful, potentially on mother or the whole family, you know, if you're cutting out Whole Foods, there's obviously the risk for nutrient deficiencies depending on what food group you're considering cutting out. And then we have to just consider in terms of infancy and immune system development, too, there's a critical period in the first 12 months of developing tolerance to foods, particularly some of the more major allergens, which are often the ones that people are either, you know, recommended, or they try cutting out themselves. And so we've potentially run the risk of increasing allergies to certain foods by not having them in the diet. And that goes for infants who are breastfed, and not on solids, too, because we know that some of that immune tolerance develops out of breast milk exposure. So, you know, having said that, the times that I would be looking to, you know, potentially explore food reactions and look, you know, they are very real and relating to sleep, like it can be a factor, I will definitely say that. So, I'm not dismissing it at all. And I know that for some families I've worked with and some families I've spoken to, when they do cut out certain groups of foods or certain types of foods, they see noticeable improvement. So it's very real, but I just think that it's potentially an over recommended strategy, but you know, what I would be looking for, you know, signs that obvious signs of digestive distress. So, you know, that's, that can be tricky to unpack with a little infant or even, you know, nonverbal babies. But, you know, things like, changes to their bowel motions, or blood or mucus in the stool is a huge red flag. If you are able to ascertain that there's some sort of, you know, abdominal discomfort, bloating, noticing that they're passing a lot of gas, you know, those would be the sort of symptoms that constipation, diarrhoea, all those kinds of things might indicate we need to take a closer look, then we'd be looking at, you know, does the baby or the toddler have any sort of allergic or atopic disease they're sometimes called. So that's things like your asthma, or your eczema. So anything like that, I would certainly be flagging or considering food reactions.
Fiona Weaver 38:06
That was going to be my next question. Is that Is there a correlation between eczema and things, and food allergies or intolerances? Because I've heard conflicting advice around that as well.
Unknown Speaker 38:17
Yeah, well, yeah, absolutely. There's a there's a relationship there. But not for every child who has an atopic disease like eczema or asthma. It can be a huge factor. Like I think some studies have shown up to one in three children who've got one of those diseases or conditions, has an IG E reaction. And so what that means is, it's a clear, allergic response to, you know, said food, one of the major allergens, but it can also be other ones. And, but that's only one type of food reaction. And you know, we're going down a rabbit hole here. So I'll just keep it kind of top level, and people can explore more if they want. But there are various types of food reactions. So IGE is that classic like anaphylaxis, I'm having reaction to peanuts kind of thing. They can also be food intolerances. So that's more about like how we're actually digesting the food once it hits the hits the intestines, or the stomach and intestines, then we can have you know, non non immune mediated reactions, but still very clearly defined reactions. And this can be to do with things like the certain food, chemical, certain chemicals that are found in the food, and that can be natural chemicals, you know, that naturally occurring or it can be things that are added to, you know, certain foods in the processing stages. So, it's a big area, you know, there's lots to unpack there, but you know, just to bring it back around to the to the point I'll make you that yes. Foods and atopic conditions. So allergic conditions, they do go hand in hand, but it's not observed in every single child who has one of those conditions.
Fiona Weaver 40:11
Yeah. Yeah, your your job is so big in trying to get to the bottom of these things. And I think it's really important to flag that if you are working with somebody who is a sleep consultant, or health practitioner of some level, and they are trying to work outside their scope of practice, like I've heard of sleep consultants in people saying, try cutting out dairy or, you know, just making some really blanket. advice or statements like that. Yeah, recommendations. And I think it's really important to be a little bit critical of the things that you're hearing and be mindful, like, when you're speaking we are we are getting how enormous this sort of assessment is, and how complex it is that we can't be making or receiving those blanket recommendations.
Unknown Speaker 41:02
Yeah, yeah, I'll say just on the end of that, that one of the other majors signs out, I'm looking for when I'm working with a family around this in terms of food, reactions, food allergies, is around family history. So if there's a strong family history in a first degree relative, so mom, dad or sibling of the baby, then yet that's also something we would we would think about too, but yeah, look, it's funny, I worked with someone this morning, you know, I was working with a mother this morning, just throughout one of our initial consult. So it's just getting to know her. And she sort of said to me, you know, my experience with naturopaths in the past is that they just told me to cut out gluten and dairy. And that that would be sort of the solution to all my problems. And, and that's very much the opposite of my approach like I am, the last thing I'll do is cut out whole food groups with anyone, particularly mothers and babies and families, because there's just so much else going on. And those kinds of foods are a wonderful source of nourishment, in most cases. So yeah, it's it is so important to talk to the right person for the right information. So yeah, if somebody who doesn't have qualifications in nutrition, is recommending to cut out food groups. Yeah, I would really just either seek a second opinion or yeah, just take a good think about whether that's right for you, maybe do your own research, because, you know, my personal experience as a clinician is, you know, that old saying, like, the more you know, the more you realise you don't know. And when it comes to
Fiona Weaver 42:44
there's a term for them.
Unknown Speaker 42:46
Yes. What do you say? It's,
Fiona Weaver 42:48
it's something like that. I was about to say Dunder Mifflin. That's the office. I was having started with D. Yes. D syndrome. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 42:58
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that syndrome, like, the more the longer I work with, you know, people in a real life context in clinic, and the more I learn, and you know, new research is coming out all the time. So like to think that any of these things are settled is wrong. The more I realise how complicated and complex these things can be, you know, right now I'm thinking about the food reactions and food allergies, but it extends to, you know, the the nutrient deficiencies as well and, and their role in sleep and why they're important. So, yeah, anybody who's, who is sort of black and white thinking or maybe seems a bit too competent or sure of these very sweeping statements might be the sign to, yeah, just do some more research on that particular piece of advice.
Fiona Weaver 43:51
So what would be if I if I gave you a magic wand? What would you love to see for mothers coming into their motherhood journey coping with stress and lack of sleep and things?
Unknown Speaker 44:06
Oh, my goodness, that magic wand wouldn't be so even if it was just like one wish you could just changed one thing. I think, I think what I would change is, okay, I'm gonna have two wishes. So I think it comes down to down to more access to support for moms, you know, that there's obviously a lack of support postpartum, we have one postpartum checkup. And really what we're looking for at that checkup is just scratching the surface of what a new mum in the postpartum period is going through. So, you know, more support there because a well supported mum is is so much better off in so many ways and you know, so to include in that early period, whether it's access to whatever she needs, I suppose you know, that The the LC, the lactation consultant or if it's a nutritionist or naturopath or whatever it might be that there's more access, because I know, you know, this comes up for people with my services is that they'd love to work with me. But you know, it's a luxury, it's a luxury expense at this point in their life, there's no, there's no Medicare funding or anything like that. So for people, it can be a big expense. And that's, for so many of these kinds of people who can support my mom's in that time. And the reason I I hone in on support is because I think, you know, if you're going to be going through sleep deprivation, and that's a reality, for so many moms, you are going to be so much better off if you've been supported in the early weeks, you know, if you've had access to information, maybe someone who can tell you a little bit about supporting yourself through sleep deprivation, or even just acknowledging the massive changes and shifts that you're going through beyond just you know, are you fit to return to exercise or what it might be. And the other one, if I had to have a second wish, would just be about slowing down in New motherhood because, you know, sleep deprivation is one thing, but then we try to do it all during the day. On top of that, we try to keep up with the house, we try to do all the cooking, we try to be the perfect mother, we try to get out and about and maybe go back to work and just we try to live like we used to do, don't we? And I think that that if we could just slow down a little bit and put less pressure on ourselves, ask less of ourselves, prioritise ourselves more, take care of ourselves more, and I know like, so much to unpack in just saying those kinds of things. But if we could slow down, then, you know, I think so much stems from there, there's more space, there's less pressure, there's less demands, so there will be my wishes.
Fiona Weaver 47:03
That would be really nice. And they're not too far fetched. Have a look and aim for there.
Unknown Speaker 47:12
Yeah, I mean, the slowing down stuff is a lot of what I talked to mums about, it's about doing less, you know, they come to me for advice, and sometimes I take things off their plate and tell them to do less rather than, you know, adding more strategies in because I think really, that is sometimes the solution to so much.
Fiona Weaver 47:30
Yes, and why some people might avoid getting naturopathic support is because they, like you said that one of your clients had an experience where they just had to cut lots of things out. It can feel really intimidating or overwhelming when you go and see someone and they're like, do this, this this take seven to eight things and, you know, completely overhaul your diet. You're like, ah, that's all too much. It's too hard. If we aim too high, we're gonna fall short.
Unknown Speaker 47:59
Yeah, and we take things so slow in my approach. Yeah, because of that exact reason. It's not the time to be overhauling. Yeah,
Fiona Weaver 48:06
I love your work. So thank you so much for today, Georgie. It's been an absolute delight. Where can people find you?
Unknown Speaker 48:13
Thank you so much for having me. I always love talking to it's great. I am easily found on Instagram. I'm at Georgie Steven Steven and spelt with a P haitch. And my website's a good little trove of of resources to for moms. So that's Georgie steven.com.au, and I blog there weekly on all these kind of topics. And I have a newsletter as well The Mamas club newsletter so jump on to the website or my Instagram and you can join there and avoid sharing bits and pieces about that and musings on motherhood videos and all kinds of resources so they're the best places to find me.
Fiona Weaver 48:52
Your legend thank you so much Georgie. Thanks very thank you so much for listening to mama chatters if you enjoyed this episode, let's continue the conversation on Instagram at MAMA matters.au Be sure to share this app with your family and friends. And don't forget if you liked it, please leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you again and I will see you next time.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
