Unknown Speaker 0:00
Hello, Elise, thank you so much for coming here today. I'm very excited to have you. It's the highlight of my week. I was been looking forward
Unknown Speaker 0:09
to this for a long time. I'm yeah, very happy to be here.
Unknown Speaker 0:14
Oh, that's lovely, isn't it? We have been friends on Instagram for a long time, haven't we?
Unknown Speaker 0:19
A very long time. I feel like it's going to be like super awkward when we if we meet in person see? Like, what if if we beat
Unknown Speaker 0:31
confidence I like it. I know. expectations on it though. Pardon to write there might be too high expectations on our meeting.
Unknown Speaker 0:41
Yeah, I just feel like we'll be like awkward first date people. You know, when you're texting someone? Well, back in the day when I was single, and you're like, have this like texting relationship? Yeah. And then. And then you meet in person. You're like, oh,
Unknown Speaker 0:56
oh, that was just text banter. My husband on Tinder. And now looking back, we laugh and like most of the stuff you told me on Tinder was a lie. Even his job title and everything was a lie. Oh, my goodness. Like the LinkedIn profiles. A little sprinkle to that. Yeah, exactly. It worked out anyway. He got the girl.
Unknown Speaker 1:23
The truth. Exactly. And he hung around. So
Unknown Speaker 1:27
that's right. Something Right. Exactly. Okay, so let's get into it anyway. So can you please tell us who you are, who's in your family and all about your work.
Unknown Speaker 1:40
My name is Elise. I am the founder of Umi play a company that I opened about three years ago. And I have a daughter named Max, she is three now. And so this little project I've been working on sort of began after she was born. And I have a partner named Jared, who I am still waiting on a ring from so I can call him my husband. So if he's listening,
Unknown Speaker 2:08
he'll definitely be listening.
Unknown Speaker 2:09
I am the company owner of yummy play. That's my little baby that I started shortly after I had max. And it really stemmed from, you know, firstly, just being a mother myself and realizing how the messaging about what it is to be a parent and what children need for learning really got to me because it didn't fit the narrative that I had already had before I was pregnant. Because I'd spent so many years in early learning that I had a specific idea of what it was like to be a parent. And then when I was stepped stepped out into, you know, my first mother's group and stepped out into the world of parenting, I thought, Oh, wow, there's such a, there's such a gap between what it is that I believe that children actually need and what society kind of says that children need. And then that's where the idea of yummy play came about. And so now, I'm filling my days working with early childhood professionals, I do lots of professional development workshops, and one to one mentoring and coaching in early childhood spaces. And I have now moved on to supporting families with circle of security programs and one to one support, using sort of all of the things that I learned along the way as, as an early childhood professional, but now as a, as a mother in trying to sort of align those two and bring that to the work that I do.
Unknown Speaker 3:47
Awesome. So that's something that we had a chat about in our book and wine club the other night, didn't we? We were talking about how having certain knowledge about parenting psychology and early childhood development and all that sort of thing can be a blessing and a curse because it can mean that we probably overthink a lot of our parenting we try to stay true to what we thought we needed to like not being totally flexible and boundaries and things like that. Can you speak to what that was like having a baby after having all of that experience working in early childhood?
Unknown Speaker 4:25
Yes, I think for the first year, I created some like really strong ideals in my mind and for the first view that kind of worked in my favor, like I was fine. I was thriving. I happen to have a really easygoing baby so Max was two months premature. And I sometimes wonder if the time in the NICU, which was absolutely fantastic. In relation to her experience. We had a really smooth, smooth stay and all the support that we received from nurses was amazing. However she she was put in a in a, what do you call
Unknown Speaker 5:05
incubator thing incubator
Unknown Speaker 5:07
for quite a few weeks. And so she was on a flat surface and she was away from me because I wasn't allowed to stay overnight. And I sometimes wonder like whether that was sort of somewhat contributing to why she was the way that she was. But the more I learn, and the more I delve into this, and the more she she remains, little Max, I realize it's her temperament. She's always been a lover of sleep, and she's happy sleeping, and I and I got a baby that it was pretty easygoing, but super sensitive in other ways. So yeah, so through the pregnancy, I had all these ideas about things that I'm really, really passionate about, talking to educators about respect for babies and respect for their natural development and, and really nurturing and attachment relationships. I had all these ideas of all these beautiful ways that you can do that. And, and in the first year, that felt fine. And then as I've moved through the years, I found it trickier and trickier and trickier to really like meet this. What I know now know, as like a completely unrealistic standard of parenting. I was trying to parent like I was a professional, rather than parenting just like a mom. And just being me
Unknown Speaker 6:30
thing. Yeah. So can you share some examples? Like what what, how, how has that played out? What has that looked like? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 6:40
I literally started the day I bought her home. No, actually, in the hospital, there's photos of me sitting by her car incubator, called let's call it a bassinet, like she was in the bed. And you can tell I don't work in the NICU. And I would sit there and read her stories every day. And I was like, with my book, and I was and now that I think back on that I'm like, you know, that was an eye like I was working from this perfectionist state from the very day that she was born. And I must do this. And then I think about like, I couldn't feed her so I was expressing and then I took expressing because she was fed through a tube don't have Yeah, she was fed through a tube. And so they said I will you'll need to pump and and so I took that to the next level to the point where I like describe my nipples as like, like someone had got, you know, those chocolate drops, you know, they sort of chocolate like chocolate. Yeah, like those cooking chocolate. The old school ones, so not the not the, not the Cadbury ones, the ones that you buy from like the traditional Lolly shop. Anyway, it was like someone had got two of those and stuck them onto my nipples because the scabs, like it was just one whole big scab like my whole nipple, like a chocolate drops stuck on top. Because I was so like the expectation of myself to Okay, I can't do anything, I've got to like, I've got to feed her. And I've got to make sure that I do that to the best that I can. So I'm sitting there torturing myself. And look, I got through it, and it was fine. But if I if he asked me that question of when did this start? I'd say I was working from this, like such pressure from the day that she was born. And then when I bought her home, I was adamant that I wouldn't have if anyone listening knows. Right? Respectful, respectful infant educators approach that. I was very influenced by that. And so I was like adamant that she wouldn't have a bouncer, she wouldn't have a high chair, she wouldn't be put in a bumbo seat she wouldn't. And so from the de dot I was placing on her back and giving her you know, her space to explore. And I was, you know, thinking I'm tuning into my baby, but really, I was doing something quite technical. Like I was thinking about it from the textbook of when they do this, you do that. And when this happens do that. And and then that probably probably the next thing was the baby led weaning, which was, you know, again, doing it by the textbook. You know, things like screens and stuff I wouldn't like you know, I was there's an example for every scenario that I was sort of projecting this, this idea of perfectionism and doing it by the book.
Unknown Speaker 9:39
Did you did you know any? Any of that at the time was having high expectations of yourself? Or is it only in hindsight?
Unknown Speaker 9:47
Yeah, before before I had, I have a tendency to want to overachieve and and look, you know, look for look for you You know, the perfect the perfect scenario and everything that I do, I remember working at Red Rooster and, and turning that into like some sort of, like, performance of how good of a cashier I can be like it really I'm working at Red Rooster, come on, I have a tendency to do that. And I you know, I've seen a counselor about you know, that setting these unrealistic expectations. I don't feel like I was I don't feel like I realized I was doing it in the first year because I enjoyed it so much. Yeah, and because Max was fine with it. Because she was that easy going baby that was happy to go along for the ride. And and I wasn't until I don't think I realized in that year that I was doing it until it became hard to hold to maintain it, to maintain it with a with a toddler who was completely irrational. And once she started to share herself with me and who she was as a person, when that didn't fit into what technically I thought was supposed to be happening, then that's when I kind of got to that point of going, you know, you can't be doing everything, how the textbooks tell you to do it, or how, you know,
Unknown Speaker 11:25
there's I think it's such a common trap, isn't it that when we align with a certain belief or approach to something we can, it can be obsessive, sometimes as well. But if we actually looked at, you know, broader family systemic influences in how we raise children, that there's so much that we take from everywhere, not just everything from one, one sole approach. So there's, there's actually no way that we could follow all of the research on how to raise baby. Without all of the rules about what's ideal about screentime. What's ideal about baby led weaning, what's ideal about playtime, all of that we can take everything with a grain of salt, and do what works for our family.
Unknown Speaker 12:11
Exactly. And that, you know, you saying like what's ideal for play, I think that was probably my biggest challenge. Because I had created a company that was founded in this idea of open ended play and supporting your child to to play. I don't want to say independent because you know, we hate I hate the word independent. But it was like this whole idea of you know, if you provide the right resources, then your child will learn to play independently. And then what, and I have a lot of strategies that I support educators to support children to have, I call it like to send the message to your child that they have good play ideas, I've got all these like little tricks and tips that you can use to support your child to go off on the top half of the circle. If anyone's done circle of security training. And then it didn't work. I was sitting like, I'm sitting in the playroom with my daughter going, why is it still working? And she should I should be able to go do the dishes and I should be able to go do these things, which is all she wants to do is play with me and like what's wrong with our relationship? And then I start dissecting that. And then it's you know, it's just this whirlwind of theory that can just you can just get caught
Unknown Speaker 13:31
up. Yeah. And when you're getting caught up in that you're not seeing the child. Exactly. You're missing what's in front of you. Yeah, exactly. I loved your post the other day on instagram about the bloody balanced bike. Yes. So yes, you had always stood by balanced bikes right before pedal bikes to lose the training wheels.
Unknown Speaker 13:53
Yep. Yeah, I remember learning about the theory about Balanced bites when I was that I was a director of a Early Learning Center, and we decided to get them for our toddlers. And I remember being so impressed by the skill level of these little children that were able to like we had, we had free range rabbits in our yards as well, like, so we had two rabbits that would just hang out in the yard, then you got to imagine there's 25 Children between the age of like 18 months and three in this one yard. And it kind of had like this, it was it was a hill but not a hill, like just sort of like a little bit of a slope. And these children that liked these balance bugs, their ability to navigate those and not crash into the rabbit not run into their friends. They'd be crawling babies, and they designed around them. And I would do tours and with families and they would come in they'd be like that's not safe, like what is happening here. And I was like, Oh no, these children like we trust them. Like watch them for five minutes and you'll get a sense of it. And I was really sold But now when I look back on that the balance by God, given those children that did show those skill levels, it was only a handful of the same children that had a real desire and a real eager and, and an interest. And they were the ones doing that not every child in that room was benefiting from those balance bikes. There were many children in there that didn't take any interest in them whatsoever. And, you know, so I guess, you know, firstly, we have to look at what's, what's the deal with balance bikes is that the argument is that, you know, the child then learns the core muscles to hold up the balance bike on their own. And they, they learn to, to get the motion of the movement, and the balance with their legs up with, and then they can avoid using training wheels. And even saying it out loud. Now I'm thinking, who cares?
Unknown Speaker 15:58
Who cares if they use training wheels? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 16:01
like, why are we in such a rush? Like, what's wrong with having training wheels for a certain period of time, like, get the more I anyway, so I was caught up in the ideal, like, Oh, this is a nice progression. And this is the natural way to do it. Because I a lot of my work. And a lot of my read, like the stuff that I delve into in the research is is the idea of supporting natural development in all areas including physical development, so you know, not using you know, those walkers that children can sit inside what are they called? The saucer is the standstill one and then the baby walkers with you know, and they can crash into the walls and they're running around. I was really like, adamant that we wouldn't use any of those. And then the balance bike I guess is like a less spoken of. ID or will training wheels, I guess are less spoken about concept. Less spoken about device that leans into that concept.
Unknown Speaker 17:07
Yeah, I understand. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. In reality.
Unknown Speaker 17:11
Okay. Yes. Yeah. Like, is it actually physically harming a child to? To be able to? Like, is it harming them by by allowing them to have a prop while they learn to pedal? And what's worse is like saying, Okay, well, I'm gonna wait until you're naturally ready to give the balanced bike a go, because it's trickier. Am I going to wait until you have that natural urge to do that? Or empower your desire that you already have right here right now to jump on that pedal bike? And give it a crack? And like, yeah, experience success? Like, why would I be holding her back from that joy? And that experience of having success? When? Yeah, it's just about me and like, what I think is, you know,
Unknown Speaker 18:08
preferable, and the and the imagined child. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I totally get it. And I think we, we can definitely get caught up in what's ideal, what's knowing what's ideal for their development, ideal for their emotion, emotional development, and all that. But who are we to take away that little sense of mastery for them? And to allow them to choose their own journey and how they learned to ride a bike? Exactly. They don't have to dictate that.
Unknown Speaker 18:36
Yeah. And in the grand scheme of life, what I want for her in life, it is that small decision to go, you know, what, surrender the valance bike, you know, I think it was pretty expensive, looks really good. I don't know like it, you know, the surrendering that in the whole grand scheme of life. It's nothing like, honestly, like, and then I think to myself, a lot of a lot of parents, you know, you put these expectations on yourself, but I'm like, who's judging this? It's, I'm the only one judging this everyone else, you know, I'm sitting there making judgments on myself when no one else is even. It's not even on their radar. Like they're not even thinking twice about that.
Unknown Speaker 19:22
Yeah, you're the one who's falling short of your own unrealistic expectation. I
Unknown Speaker 19:27
think we're all doing that. Like, for all parents, I think that we've all got something in our head. And it's and the outside the people on the outside are not it's not even on their radar. So you can kind of think about the fact that people are potentially looking in and thinking a certain way, when really their mind is probably, you know, thinking about 10 different other things, you know, you can sort of apply that theory with other way I feed my baby the way I'm rocking her, what are they thinking and real Really it's, it's our own narrative is what's stopping us. It's the narrative in our own head saying, Oh, they are thinking this, or I think I shouldn't be doing this because A, B, or C, that's the way,
Unknown Speaker 20:13
I think that it also comes down to our own family values. Like if I feel very passionate about being responsive enough to my kids, and being authentic and our connection, and being with and all of that, then I'm going to focus more on that. However, my kids don't eat organic home cooked meals, they don't sit at the table, three times a day, we watch too much TV, we've got lots of places where we drop the ball, as well. Touching on that, again, knowing what you do know about child development, what are your negotiables and your non negotiables of how you will raise your daughter?
Unknown Speaker 20:52
It's a really good question. It's something that has changed, and I think will continue to change. As I raise her I think, especially when more children come hopefully, I think that non negotiables have definitely loosened I think I don't have many non negotiables anymore, I you know, we we have McDonald's, and sit on the couch and eat at watching TV. And I find joy in that now. Whereas before there, I would have found judgment in that I would have, you know, there would have been the the expectations would have sort of eaten away at me for for non negotiables. Our non negotiables are always just to see Max as an individual and, and accept her for exactly who she is, rather than really trying to shift her into that ideal child that, you know, that you wrote the book on before they're born, you know, this is what my child's can be like, because I'm gonna do it like this. And my child will never do that. Or, you know, the only reason why that child in the supermarket's doing that is because a parent's obviously not doing this, like that's completely evaporated. In my opinion,
Unknown Speaker 22:11
I went straight to training wheels.
Unknown Speaker 22:15
Exactly, exactly. So yeah, non negotiables are hard for us. I don't we, I really tried to avoid you know, but anything that sort of falls under a behaviorist type of approach. You know, we don't discipline, like the traditional way, we don't use rewards or punishments, things like that. Quiet? Yeah. Like, I would say, it's just, it's hard to answer because it just doesn't even some things don't come to my mind, because I'm just so they're so far out of how we how we sort of parent. But I'd like to touch more on what I've let go. Yeah, go for it, you know, so letting go of this idea of, you know, my, my quality of parenting can be measured by the amount of screen time we use. Let go, I've let go of that, you know, there are days and I'm not and, and also like, you know, when I'm supporting other families, and when I'm supporting myself and having reflective conversations about myself, I'm thinking about things like consistency and predictability for for Max and how she will feel safe. And she can rest in the in the predictable safety of, you know, my my consistency. But you have to sort of take that also with a grain of salt, because some days, days look different. And some days what I'm about what the amount of how do I say it, the my ability to bring my best self is not the same every day. So some days you're going you know what, I'm not bringing my best self today, let's just sit on the couch and watch a movie together and heat up some popcorn and let's just chill. Because she can sit on my lap, she can feel my proximity and I'm not having to commit to you know, back and forth eye contact and you know, giving us smiles and giving her my my best self we but we can still just be with each other while we watch a movie. And there's nothing wrong with that. Like, I'm still a really great parent on those days, if not even better sometimes. And yeah, so all of those things that I thought would be big. As I was talking about before, like, you know, the baby led weaning, I was really like down in the research about, you know, even limiting, like even the order that I was introducing foods because I didn't want to introduce the fruits too early because because then they'll get a sweet tooth and then you won't be able to get them to eat their broccoli and things like that. And now I've just cut. Now I've really taken the idea of never forced the issue to the next level, whereas, where we don't really have much expectation around max at mealtimes. And often, were eating chocolate crackles Hello. And I don't mind anymore. Yeah. You know what? I've been thinking about that since you said that on Friday how I was talking about this worry of being a Yes, ma'am. Like when will go into the shops? Was I over indulging her? Was I you know, saying yes to the Boost Juice? Yes. To the sushi, yes to the banana bread. And what that meant? And you said, you know, well, maybe that I can't remember what you said, What did you say to me?
Unknown Speaker 25:53
Probably something profound. Was it was really profound. It was something like it was just maybe that isn't a maybe that's just a lacks boundary for you, because it's not so important to you.
Unknown Speaker 26:05
Yeah. And there was something about you know, finding joy in that. And that that's okay. Like, if that could be your
Unknown Speaker 26:11
thing. Yeah, it's actually a one day a week that you go and say, yes, all the food that she wants at the shops.
Unknown Speaker 26:17
Yeah, exactly. But for me, that was something that like I used to be so picky about, and would be thinking about, what does this mean? What does this mean? That more relaxed I am, the more and I find that this can be helpful for other people is, the more relaxed you are and the less pressure you can apply, the more your child will surprise you. We went to a friend's house for dinner last night and I had cooked this meal. She's just had a baby. And so I took the meal over and I just said I messaged her on the way and I said, Oh, do you have any greens to go with the meal just to make it a full meal? And my daughter sat there and like no prompting nothing just ate a whole bowl of beans for dinner. And, and you know, then you think, well, the chocolate crackles don't matter, like
Unknown Speaker 27:04
a couch doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
Unknown Speaker 27:06
Because the less pressure I apply the more she doesn't see it as good foods, bad foods. It's
Unknown Speaker 27:12
just food. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think it's important. I was reflecting the other day. And it just went out on my email this morning. But on when I had a bit of a, a bit of a sore head after a girl's night, and my husband was at a football game. And so I said to my kids, I hadn't seen them because I had stayed away for the night before for the girls night. And so I was that mom was doing very mediocre parenting today, I'm not available to do lots of parenting, but I'm going to be here on the couch and you can join me or you can watch TV. Or you can play on the iPad. You can do whatever you want. Mama's got no boundaries today. And just owning it. And thinking, what am I doing to myself, we had the nicest day because there was no pressure on anyone. There was no expectations. I wasn't rushing around the house trying to get jobs done. Getting them to do stuff, telling them to turn the TV off getting annoyed at noxee for finding another screen somehow. And we enjoy things together. Like we play games on the iPad together, we watch shows together. Sometimes I even put my own show on Kardashians. I would never usually do that. I would never ever sit on the couch and watch TV. And I think that it was a real novelty for them to see mom sitting down and they could come and join me and just relax and be with me under the blanket. Yeah, yeah. And they so powerful, kind of to let go of those expectations and just be easier to be around even.
Unknown Speaker 28:39
Yeah. Yeah. And I was thinking about that when because we spoke about that on the front on Friday. And then I had two days with Max and Jared was away car racing. And I was thinking about you and that story. And I was like, What can I let go this weekend? And even just the thought of just let it go. Just just just and you know, like, I teach parents how to be with. And this idea of being with and, and then I was like thinking about your story. And I was sort of mattering to myself let go and just be with and we did for the weekend. And it was it was beautiful. Like I was saying to you straight after the next day. I think it was maybe it was Sunday. But I said to Max, you can watch as much fluid as you want you just like you let me know when you're done. And I've never done that before. There's always a boundary you're watching. You're watching two episodes. And at the end of this episode, we're turning it off, you know, all the scripted. Yeah, textbook stuff and I just said, I trust you. You just let me know when you've had enough and she did. Did she and it wasn't that long like it was. It was probably an hour.
Unknown Speaker 29:52
Yeah, that's pretty good.
Unknown Speaker 29:54
But she walked away and she was like I had enough and Yeah, it was just one of those epiphanies of another another way that I can, you know, it's not like throw the the baby out with the bathwater either. Um, no, you know, it's it's, it's the consciousness of knowing how children learn how children play, what gets in the way of learning, play and relationships. It's about knowing what gets in the way. And just being conscious about that. While you're still living your goddamn life. You know?
Unknown Speaker 30:29
Yeah, I agree. And I think there's a real subtle shift in the way that we do shift those boundaries as well. It's not throw your hands up in the air. And they are I don't care, do whatever you want. Because I've lost the plot. It's, I'm in charge in a bigger, stronger, wiser kind way. And I'm making a decision. I'm, I'm letting go of this today. So enjoy yourselves, knowing that it will be back on tomorrow. And let's all have a nice day together. Exactly. Oh, just that I trust you. I think that's so powerful as well, like, you just let me know, when you're ready. You let me know when your body's not feeling very good in front of the TV anymore? And we'll turn it off.
Unknown Speaker 31:07
Yeah, and the same. You know, that that idea of what trusting that when you're ready is so powerful. Isn't that just you know, you can apply it to anything?
Unknown Speaker 31:18
Yeah. You know, when you're ready to do their own bodies.
Unknown Speaker 31:21
Yeah. When you're ready to go pee on the potty? You let me know, and I'm here for you like it's over there. And I trust that when you're ready, this will be a thing. Like we don't have to make it about you know, we don't have to make it about it. We have to stay home for three days because I'm toilet training. It doesn't have to be that way.
Unknown Speaker 31:41
It doesn't have to be that way. No. Okay, so last question. Elise. This is the magic wand question. Knowing what you know about early childhood development, raising babies, all of the things, what would you change if you could change the way that we, as a society see and care for our kids?
Unknown Speaker 32:04
How do you even answer that question, Fiona? What would I change? I think we've already started to make a shift. I think the work is already been done by people like yourself. People like Dr. Shefali, and all the amazing influencing thought leaders around the world, Dr. Neufeld, all of that stuff. There's lots of there's lots of work already being done in this space. But what I think is that we're still, you know, a few fish in the ocean, like, you know, what the saying about, like, you know, we're swimming upstream while everyone else is swimming downstream. I think that when I say what I'm about to say, I think that there's, it's already happening in some ways. And I just think that we're like the first generation of parents to be shifting into this new way of being and seeing children. And so the magic wand would be to wave that wand and get it to happen quicker, where we start to look at relationships as the foundation of learning at the the relationship that you can build with your child, being that of one that is responsive and safe and secure and supported and developed based in attachment and development, if we can create that to be the norm, and the normal conversation that you hear at the playground, that's what we're talking about. When we go down to playgroup as people are talking about stuff that relates to relationships with our children, then I think a lot of our our problems in society would would shift. So the short answer to that is that we move away from behaviorism. And we look at more developmental science and attachment theory and use that to make decisions about our parenting. And that will take a long time, because then we know, you know, we parent, how we were parented, and we were parented by behaviorist, as a generalization. So that can be really hard to shift. But I think that a lot of people are talking about this, and, and the more the neuroscience confirms what we're banging on about, the more people think, oh, then there's some merit in this. And, and yeah, and lastly, I think if we stop, I think there's a big rush in parenthood and rush in relation to the way that we live, but also what we expect of our children. So we're pushing independence way too soon. When what we need to be pushing is dependence and CO regulation and all of these relationship style thoughts that we can't have independence without dependents. And I think we got to stop talking about supporting our children to play independ Totally supporting our children to sleep independently independently God like you know baby led weaning don't even feed them like you they have to feed themselves
Unknown Speaker 35:09
their own corn
Unknown Speaker 35:10
yeah disclaimer I do believe in baby led weaning I love it but like it doesn't have to.
Unknown Speaker 35:15
Because we want them to be independent. Yes
Unknown Speaker 35:18
push to be independent. I think if we start if we start, if we slow down and start trusting our instincts and trusting our children and ourselves. Yeah, then we'll all be better off
Unknown Speaker 35:31
trusting the process. Yes, that emerge a million times. Yes, Elise. We are fighting the same good fight. I have loved chatting to you today. Thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you?
Unknown Speaker 35:45
You can find me mainly on Instagram. At my my personal. I've got two pages that I love both dearly. You can find me at my company page, which is Umi play whether you or you can see me over at the Elise Disha page. Elise Disha dot Edie big on little people. And yeah, otherwise you can check out the website. You mean play.com.au
Unknown Speaker 36:13
Amazing. Thank you so much for being here.
Unknown Speaker 36:16
You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me. You're
Unknown Speaker 36:19
welcome.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
